36 Comments For This Post

1. Fazer170 Says:
   August 20th, 2008 at 10:30 am

   Isn’t that the flag of the losing team??? Why would you be proud of that?

2. JJ Says:
   August 20th, 2008 at 9:56 pm

   Why yes they we’re the losing team… that doesn’t make them on the wrong side though.

3. Fazer170 Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 8:52 am

   So, you want a divided union?

4. Guav Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 10:01 am

   JJ didn’t say that he wanted a divided union, or that he necessarily identified with the confederates—he just correctly pointed out that whether a side in a war wins or loses is not relevant to whether or not they were right or wrong, just like whether a sports team wins or loses is not relevant to whether or not their fans root for them.

5. Fazer170 Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 10:27 am

   Well, the post was made promoting the raising of a large confederate flag. Seemed like the effort was seen as positive. Then, the response to my comment was that them losing doesn’t mean they were wrong. I took it as they were right. So, my take is that the rebels cause…”leaving the union”…must be also seen as positive.

   My point is this. The rebel flag stands for a lot of things to many different folks. To some slavery, to others state rights, and to others a broken union. I think those encouraging folks to consider the independent party might do well to not promote the rebel flag unless they too are for all 3 things. This will only cause confusion as to why you are raising the flag.

   Additionally, and more important to me. The Stars and Stripes defeated the rebels. When Lee surrendered he looked for the terms of surrender. He was told to take his guns and army back home and rejoin the union. That was it. They were immediately restored and no other penalty was applied. The rebels were defeated, so, I’d encourage them to lower the flag and raise the stars and stripes and not violate the terms of surrender. You wouldn’t want to see the Spanish Flag at the Alamo, you wouldn’t want to see the British Flag Yorktown. To me, associating with the confederate army is associating with enemies of the union and violating terms of surrender. To me it is amazing to see it in places like WV where the State of WV wouldn’t even exist if it didn’t break from Virginia in support of the Union. Also, many Northern or Union states have it raised.

   I don’t mean to say you guys are anti-union. I just wanted you to see my view of the flag and not just the other two more popular views.

6. Guav Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 3:54 pm

   I think flying the confederate flag is goofy personally, I was just playing devil’s advocate

7. JJ Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm

   Well, I guess the cat is out of the bag so why not… I think the Civil War needs to be carefully examined outside of what our school books taught us as children. Personally, I believe there is great evidence that proves Abe Lincoln used the banner of slavery as a scapegoat (kinda like WMD, maybe?) in a war to extinguish a rebellious citizenry whose issue was against a corrupted government.

   In a day and culture where we are so sensitized to equality… revisionist history is abound. I recommend people do their homework and see what ole’ Abe Lincoln was really about.

   As for the Union… the constitution (and state’s constitutions) gives states the right to secede from the Union. If there were any state today in the Union that had the guts to secede from the United States… I would move there in a heartbeat. Maybe the principles of our fore fathers could be actually realized somewhere… because they are not in these United States.

   But what about your patriotism, JJ? Patriotism is a funny word. It seems like most folks get it confused with “nationalism.” The patriots who we hold so near and dear in our hearts, who we also call our founding fathers, would spit on us if they were alive. Why? Well, they warned us.

   They would have never let the Federal Government tax it’s people the way the good ole’ U.S. of A taxes its citizens. They started a revolution over the Stamp Act mind you. Now we shell out upwards of 50-60% of our earned income after the Feds, State, and Local governments get their share.

   A true patriot would stand against such tyranny and quit being part of the problem (IE voting for every Neocon that runs for office).

   Also, the Rebel Flag was not the official flag of the Confederate States of America… It was a battle flag. I am pretty sure there is nothing restricting its display.

8. JJ Says:
   August 21st, 2008 at 7:46 pm

   In his book Patriotic Gore: Studies in the Literature of the Civil War the literary critic Edmund Wilson explained the most important consequence of that war in a single profound paragraph:

   The impulse to unification was strong in the nineteenth century . . . and if we would grasp the significance of the Civil War in relation to the history of our time, we should consider Abraham Lincoln in connection with the other leaders who have engaged in similar tasks.

   The chief of these leaders have been Bismarck and Lenin. They with Lincoln have presided over the unifications of the three great new modern powers . . . . Each established a strong central government over hitherto loosely coordinated peoples. Lincoln kept the Union together by subordinating the South to the North; Bismarck imposed on the German states the cohesive hegemony of Prussia; Lenin . . . began the work of binding Russia . . . in a tight bureaucratic net.

   Each of these men, wrote Wilson, “became an uncompromising dictator” and was succeeded by newly formed bureaucracies that continued to expand the power of the state and diminish freedom so that “all the bad potentialities of the policies he had initiated were realized, after his removal, in the most undesirable ways.”

   From http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo77.html

9. Fazer170 Says:
   August 23rd, 2008 at 10:41 am

   Yet independent nations like Texas who had fought for the right to be free and independent saw the benefit of being united and overwhelmingly voted (against the recommendation of Sam Houston) to join the Union. Today, I think it would be very tough for an independent state to be truly independent. That State could boast of its own laws and its own government (shouldn’t now the state’s counties have more indepedence from the state???) yet it would never survive without being protected by the USA. It could have all the citizen armies it wanted. It could have all the independence of thought. But, it could never be independent on the national scene. It would greatly depend on the UNITED States to protect it. It would be like the Amish. They live independent of Government. No taxes, no requirement to meet our school systems, etc. Yet, they have to trade with us, they rely on our police (school shooting in PA, they ran to a neighbor and had them call the police), they use our hospitals (yes, they will use the electrically run hospitals), they use our roads, etc. They enjoy their indpendence, because they have our protection.

   I have tons of folks teaching me all this CAPITAL LETTER names on credit cards stuff, teaching me about incorporating their land to become independent of city government, and showing how the Easter Bunny taught us to steal (yes, that is on one website by these independents). I’m serious. They remind me of the weirdos in the Church that think VISA is the mark of the beast and that Gorbachev’s birth mark on his head meant he was the anti-christ.

   I do respect you and enjoy the debate. But, anyone thinking they can break from the Union and be truly independent are either foolish, or will be overrun in the future by another nation.

   If you truly read history (I know, it will be seen only as revisionary) you’ll see battles between Jefferson and Hamilton over these sames issues. Hamilton wanting a federal bank and Jefferson hating it. Yet, Jefferson expanded the federal government more than anyone before him. Yet, he ran on the principles of a smaller government. Our Founders always struggled and we swang back and forth and have always come to more of the middle.

   This stuff honestly reminds me of those folks in the church who see Jesus in the smoke of 9/11, who think Christian Rock music is satanic because of the beat, who use esoteric logic to find the mark of the beast everywhere.

   I don’t like where our nation is heading (socialism), yet I believe the idea is to fight the issue and keep the union in tact.

10. JJ Says:
    August 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    I do believe your premises that a independent State, apart from the US, would be eminently doomed to failure is based solely on personal opinion rather than rationalism. I suppose that if this Constitutional Right were exercised and a State did secede, this new country would have no allies and no militia? Unless this state were on a seaboard, an invading Army would need to come through the US to invade, wouldn’t it? Would there be no money for defense of it’s borders in this new country? How does any other country defend itself, I would ask you?

    Your rational is not only flawed but I dare say its silly. What’s even more silly is your insinuations that my beliefs are somewhat related to groups of conspiracy theorists or hardcore dispensationalists (mind you I am a Non-millennial preterist).

    Disrespecting a man on is own blog is a party foul and subjects you to anathema, my friend. I have to admit, I am still getting used to being a Constitutionalist who gets ridiculed by Bush Neoconservatives (whom I once embraced in my former ignorance).

    Here’s an idea Fazer, stick to your Nationalism, vote McCain, and then say “Baaaaa” as these moderate GOPers turn your Republic into a another totalitarian USSR. But I am the crazy one, right?

11. JJ Says:
    August 24th, 2008 at 12:05 am

    PS: I think the funny looking old guy in the American Revolution video I posted, is a great American… not Sean Hannity. Maybe the old dude and I could get together sometime, wear tin foil hats, and watch for UFOs??

    Pshh… please.

12. Fazer170 Says:
    August 24th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    Wow, you really got upset. In no way did I call you crazy. I said some of the ideas of these websites that promote the CAPITAL LETTER issues with credit cards, that also say the Easter Bunny teaches us to steal remind me of the weird Christians that do all the things I said. I also said, that your independent state would be more dependent as well. You verified that when you said unless it was on the shore, no one would cross American soil to get to it. Point made, I would say.

    On your video, I commented that it made great sense and I learned a lot.

    You’ve missed the point because you are taking things personally and not listening. I’m saying that if you want folks to hear you and learn of your cause, it is my opinion that promoting the losing confederate flag and such will destroy the message for many such as myself.

    If you want my independent thought thrown out of your new world, so be it. 3G is the only blog I’ve ever chatted on. I’ve loved it and would be happy to stay. But, if you cannot dialog and you want to hear, Amen only to your ideas. I guess I’m gone.

    Three cheers to your freedom, it allowed me to lose mine here. Sorry.

13. Fazer170 Says:
    August 24th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    P.S. Your still a brother in Christ, just as my friends are who gave me the 88 reasons why the rapture would take place in 1988. May Gob Bless!

14. Chad Says:
    August 25th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    haha. everyone’s gettin all sassy around here.

    Alot of good Americans died under the confederate battle flag, and it should be equally respected as a symbol of their sacrifice and for its historical value.

    Even today the Virginia Bill of Rights states that “they shall be able to withdraw from the union at any time”.

    Too bad that bill is completely violated, and they’d never be able to do such a thing.

    The real confederacy was strength through being united, but each to his own. If I don’t like how new york wants to marry some fags, I can move to WV where I can marry a goat (j/k).

    It’s no good having some fat cat in DC telling all other states what the federal law is.

    so, its not about a state being left alone and being attacked by other nations. cos the confederacy was a safeguard against that.

15. JJ Says:
    August 25th, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Haha… Fazer, dude, you need to reread your first comments and then reread your last comment. You mentioned these groups of folks for a reason I would imagine. Then you call me foolish for thinking a State has the right and should exercise the right to secede from the union. You are the one that started all this sassyness. All I am saying is that you better be careful not to get too sassy… cuz naturally this is my blog (and you know from years past how I deal with folks who call me crazy).

    PS. You are still a brother in Christ… just like those Hethen Jehovah Witnessess who don’t believe in the Trinity. Haha.

16. JJ Says:
    August 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    That last part was a joke by the way. I had to with that last jab of yours.

17. Fazer170 Says:
    August 25th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    JJ: Okay, whatever, I did say first I respected you. I guess that didn’t matter. Then you confirmed my point on dependency still being there. So, you’re not crazy! I am for attempting to clarify!

    I thought I was blogging. Didn’t know I was creating enemies. I’ll trying to behave, or take a break. We’ll see.

    Chad: Just because they can break from the Union doesn’t mean it right!!!

    Guys, I’m in full agreement with what you want in this nation. I’m in full agreement in what’s wrong with this nation. I’m just not one to believe succession is positive move to solve it. I think you lose your message with such extreme statements. Don’t miss this reality. I’m not hating what you love and loving what you hate about America. I’m just not agreeing with the approach to solution. I’m arguing my points in that respect. That is all.

    JJ: I know it is a joke, but for the record, I believe in the Trinity!!!! LOL!

    AT LEAST YOU GUYS ARE DOING SOMETHING ON 3G AGAIN. YEAH!

18. JJ Says:
    August 25th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    I am not so sure whether to be more mad that 1) you think I am mildly insane OR 2) that you are still using IE6.

    The shame!!

    

19. Chad Says:
    August 26th, 2008 at 8:59 am

    Haha. IE6!!!! n000b!!

    “Just because they can break from the Union doesn’t mean it right!!!”

    1. They can’t break from the union. That is the problem. In the founding of the federal union, the states all recognized the woes of joining a federal union, and having it become too big for it’s britches. So they wrote in their bill of rights that they shall always retain the unalienable right to leave the union. Their fears became reality when the tyrant Abe Lincoln decided that their bill of rights was worthless and now is ultimately responsible for slaughtering Americans in an effort to prevent their leaving.

    2. Who decides if states suceeding or not is right? I’ll stick to the side of the founding fathers, and say the states have every right, morally and (should) physically.

20. Fazer170 Says:
    August 26th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    Chad: Everything the founders did was to create a union. That is why they didn’t address the slavery issue. Each one felt that preserving the union was more important than even solving this moral issue. That is how important the union was to the founders. They all wanted to abolish slavery (even the slave holders), but they wouldn’t have gotten the union if that was an issue. They even forced it to be illegal to discuss in congress until 50 years (if memory serves) so that nothing would force an issue on slavery and risk the union. That’s why old Abe had to deal with the issue. Now Abe Lincoln is a tyrant? What are you guys reading? It seems like yesterday you guys were on one page and now today, you all hate everything we use to be proud of. I’m lost.

    Sorry to not care about the latest browsers, oh the shame! Too busy hunting and fishing, repelling, biking the C&O canal, and raising my kids to worry about PCs. I work on Mainframes that do real work. Never trust a machine you can carry!

21. JJ Says:
    August 26th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    Hate everything we used to be proud of? Dude, seriously you sound like a drama queen. I have always abhorred the man Lincoln… just as I have always abhorred Martin Luther King, JR. Wanna know why? Because I am not a gullible tool like many people.

    I think maybe you are the one that should do some readin. Take a break from your huntin and fishin and get to sum edumacasion.

    Lew Rockwell Archives: Read and Learn

    There is no shame, no dishonor, nor any unpatriotic notion in declaring the State inherently evil. It is evil… plain and simple. Even Reagan, knew this. When a nation state becomes so incredibly powerful, they demand its citizenry to adhere or die… the state needs abolished. This is why the USSR fell. There were folks in the old Soviet with your same rationale… yet Liberty prevailed.

    Also, IE 6 is 7 years old for the love of PETE! The shame.

22. Guav Says:
    August 27th, 2008 at 7:38 am

    Chad:
    

    “Alot of good Americans died under the confederate battle flag, and it should be equally respected as a symbol of their sacrifice and for its historical value.”

    Now I’m gonna go and ruin everything and break Godwin’s Law:
    

    “A lot of good Germans died under the Nazi flag, and it should be equally respected as a symbol of their sacrifice and for its historical value.”

    I’m in no way comparing the confederates with the Nazis, that’s not my point. My point is that millions of good, decent patriotic Germans in the regular German army—not Nazi SS or anything, just regular dudes who were soldiers—died fighting under the Nazi flag. However, the flag itself is seen as a symbol for other, less savory things, and that’s what it will be remembered for, not respected as a symbol of sacrifice by patriots. Nor, do I think, should it be.

    There are some things that history has rested it’s case on, and the truth of the matter is that, although the Confederate flag may have been benign in and of itself, that is not how it is viewed by a majority of Americans now, and it never will be. So although I agree that it’d be nice if it could viewed in a vacuum devoid of historical context, it’s not going to be. History is written by the victors.

    So whenever someone is like “I am not a racist or an advocate of slavery, I just respect the flag for it’s patriotic context” or whatever, people are going to take that with a grain of salt and view them warily, in the same way that someone who said that about the Nazi flag would be looked at sideways.

    My point is just that good people dying under a particular flag does not mean that that flag can be viewed objectively by most people if there is negative historical baggage attached to it, nahmsayin?

    Fazer170:
    

    “I thought I was blogging.”

    Technically, you’re commenting …. JJ is blogging

    JJ:
    

    There is no shame, no dishonor, nor any unpatriotic notion in declaring the State inherently evil.

    Unless the person declaring that is a progressive or a liberal, in which case they are an unpatriotic, dishonorable shameful anti-American traitor

    Hey, if you like As I Lay Dying, I might be able to send you some shirts if you tell me your size. Depends on what samples we have in the office. Just sayin’.

23. Fazer170 Says:
    August 27th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    JJ: Great, I’m a tool, drama queen, and have browser envy. How will I sleep?

    Chad: Completely understand. You get that it can be misunderstood, but I get too that it can have other meanings.

24. JJ Says:
    August 28th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Guav: OMGawrsh, As I lay dying is my favorites.

    Also, a Liberal calling the State evil is like a pot calling the kettle black. Most Liberals want to see the State grow, which nulls the whole point.

    I think Nietzche is a crackhead but he sure got it right about the state:
    “But the state lies in all the tongues of good and evil; and whatever it talks about, it lies - and whatever it has, it has stolen. Everything about it is false; it bites with stolen teeth, and it snarls. Even its very entrails are false.” - Nietzsche

    Fazer: Never called you a tool… just meant that I really don’t wanna be a tool (a person that does whatever he is told and believes what everyone tells him to believe).

    Chad: You smell funny.

25. Guav Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 8:54 am

    Ok JJ, so you wear a girl’s small, right?

    Liberals don’t love the state unequivocally nor do they think it’s inherently evil. Kinda like I see guns—neither good nor bad, what matters is what you do with it.

26. Chad Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Guav: The comparison of the nazi flag and the confederate flag is only partially accurate. The root of it being that whatever the current majority feels, makes that flag out to acceptable or not.

    So, what those 2 flags stand for is so far apart, it really isn’t a fair and accurate comparison. That’s like comparing the “Care Bear Stare” with the “Death Star Canon”. Okay, maybe not that drastic.

    Nazi’s were the offenders. The south were the defenders against the federal aggression imposing its will on other free states. But you’re absolutely correct that the victors write the history books. So lets not all be ignorant tool bags on the issue, and examine what really went down.

    Fazer: There are true meanings and false meanings. I support the true meaning of the confederate flag. not the hype or hysteria.

    And as far as the browser. srsly. it takes 5 minutes to download and install. you won’t miss out on your huge list of “manly things to do”.

27. Fazer170 Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Chad: Srsly, I’m a muzzleloader hunter, married once, love history, and wish I was on the Lewis and Clark trail. I’m primitive. IE6 is how I surf for now.

    No, I support several versions of my products and the older ones (that are barely still in support) require IE6. I keep it for testing and verification as I’m helping with migrations for many more months to come with customers around the world. Sorry to give an honest answer, but the browser concerns were getting more serious with you guys. I’ll be fine with this old smoke pole while you guys draw those semi-autos.

28. Chad Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    Despite the fact that you need IE6 for work reasons, doesn’t mean you can take that 5 minutes to download firefox which does not interfere with IE6 in any way shape or form.

    “Srsly, I’m a muzzleloader hunter, married once, love history, and wish I was on the Lewis and Clark trail.”

    I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, so I’ll just throw something out there about myself as well.

    I’m a rifle hunter, still married to my first love, love pizza burgers from paul bunyans, and enjoy long windy walks on the beach.

29. Fazer170 Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    Chad: I knew Firefox was on the way. The list of primitive behaviors was to point out a long list that include IE6, but sorry it was missed.

30. Guav Says:
    August 29th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    “So, what those 2 flags stand for is so far apart, it really isn’t a fair and accurate comparison.”

    I agree, which is why I made a point to say that I was not comparing the Nazis and the Confederates—I was just saying that good men and patriots dying under a flag does not mean that that flag can or will be respected as a symbol of sacrifice.

    I don’t hunt, I like guns cause they go bang and kill bad guys, I’m married and I eat tofu. Not crazy about the beach.

31. Fazer170 Says:
    September 7th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Chad: I downloaded Chrome after seeing an interview with Google CEO on FoxNews. Thought I’d connect to 3G with Chrome as a test! LOL!

32. DRC Says:
    September 27th, 2008 at 3:13 am

    The Founding Fathers were wise men. They feared what someone like Mr.Lincoln would do, therefore they placed in the Bill of Rights the right to pull out of a corrupt Country..remember Britian. The cause of the Confederacy was to preserve the freedom of States from over taxation, and the pagan belief’s and incroachments of the liberal North. Robert E. Lee was a Christian above reproach..Stonewall Jackson was as well. Most of the Generals of the South were devout servant’s of God.

    JJ articulated the pertinet points better than I ever could. I for one live in the South. I am a Patriot and fly a beloved Confederate flag. For those that believe that the invasion of sovern states by an oppressive Government(USA) was being Patriotic..well you have a bad understanding of Patriatism. The South didn’t start the war..we didn’t as some teach fire the first shot’s either. The North came down here looking for a fight and found one. We are proud that we didn’t do like the French and surrender without a fight.

    Another historical fact: Not one slave ever came to America on a ship that flew the Confederate flag.

    Many ships that sailed slaves to America flew the Union American Flag..who needs to be ashamed? Not the Confedrates..perhaps the Nationalist that look up to this Union flag all the while looking down on the Confederate flag and the South in general. By the way, I DO FLY A Union flag because I am a member of the USA and very proud of it too..but, if there was a free Confederacy I would without much hesitation support it with my presense.

    Jesus is Lord!!!
    David
    South Carolina

33. Fazer170 Says:
    September 29th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    So, only the seller of slaves is to blame?

34. DRC Says:
    September 30th, 2008 at 2:42 am

    SO you blame a flag Frazer? A flag that represents a Southern cause of freedom and states rights. Why, by your rational, don’t you speak this way about the Union flag? I think it is because you are blinded by false historians and perhaps bias toward Southern people. You try and tell us how we should believe that are proud of this Confederate cause. Don’t Tread on us!

    That little history lesson you logged about the tyrant Lincoln is traditional rivisionist history. The reason you are misguided in this issue of ideas is because, you have accepted the easy,liberal, false teaching of the War of Northern agression. You do not understand the Founding Fathers nor the issues of why the Tyrant Lincoln invaded the South. It had nothing to due with slavery but rather holding Sovern states hostage to taxation and Federal regulation. When Lincoln abolished slavery, were did he abolish it at? In the South only! This was done to destroy the Southern economy. The Northerners still were allowed to keep slaves. It was a campagn stratagy to win re-election.

35. Guav Says:
    September 30th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    DRC, Don’t be ignorant. >If it wasn’t for the French, there would never have been a Union or a Confederate flag in the first place—we’d have still been flying the Union Jack in 1861.

36. JJ Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-10-02_040_dishonest_abe.mp3

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